The voice of Reason has not entirely lost the battle.

[camwyn]

Yesterday I got into work an hour late, largely because a train signal somewhere outside Secaucus or Penn Station (I think Secaucus) had frozen to death. Amtrak, which runs Penn Station, wasn't about to take chances with that, so four or more NJ Transit trains heading for NYC were diverted to Hoboken. The passengers would have their NJ Transit passes/tickets honoured by the PATH train personnel- PATH is a small subway with a limited route, and is the only non-ferry, non-car route from Hoboken to New York City. It is very, very popular as a consequence, and at rush hour it is even more popular. Popular, of course, meaning crowded.

Now imagine an already crowded subway line being made to carry four more trains' worth of rush-hour commuters than it is really prepared for...

We could have done with some Japanese guys in white gloves to fill the trains a bit more densely, but I'm not sure how much difference it would have made in the end. Those trains were well and truly packed, to the point where people didn't need to hold onto poles or bars to keep from falling over when the train stopped or went around a curve. So packed, in fact, that a quiet little voice in my head said, "This is exactly the kind of situation that a terrorist would be looking for as a target of opportunity."

(In my defence, there are signs all over the bloody NJ Transit and PATH stations saying 'if you see something, say something' and 'unattended bags MIGHT BE BOMBS OMG OMG OMG TELL SOMEBODY QUICK!!!'. Including one hanging right outside where I got on the PATH.)

The terrorist comment was shortly followed by, "Even if it wasn't a terrorist incident, would it even be possible to get all these people to safety if a fire or other incident broke out while this train was between stations?"

At which point the long-suffering voice of Reason in my head came out and stifled the other one with the following set of points:

1. It's not going to happen.
2. If you keep bringing up these points one of them is going to get said aloud.
3. Schenck vs. United States. "Fire in a crowded theatre." SAME THING.
4. So shut up.

And, for once, the voice of nasty little thoughts did.

Must remember to pack flashlight along in future, though, just in case. It'll be handy anyway- the NJ Transit train interior lights have a distressing tendency to go out when I'm trying to write John boggling at the Sorting Hat...

Comments

[maps-or-guitars.livejournal.com]

Oh thank you, voice of reason! Thank you thank you!

TVOR doesn't get enough use in this town. Particularly the trains.

Like the time a fistfight broke out on the downtown 4 I was riding (Jerry Springer on the MTA) a pregnant woman (A)picked a fight with (B) a man old enough to be her father, i.e. 35, and her kid-man (C)was forced to back her up by throwing (B) into a headlock against the pole while (A) threw (mercifully)ineffectual punches over (C's) shoulder. We'd just left 59th street station, and had blocks to go before we got to Grand Central. The train was moving slowly.

And (D,) a woman in receptionist togs, reaches for the Emergency brake.

Which would stop the train.

Between stations.

With a fight onboard.

Me to D: "DON'T PULL THE BRAKE."
D to Me: "But they're FIGHTING!"
Me to D: "And if we stop in the tunnel, NOBODY CAN DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. DON'T PULL THE BRAKE."
A on B: whackity whack whack whack whack
C on B: holdy headlocky holdy holdy
B to A&C: "okay! ow! okay! ow! okay!"

D didn't pull the brake. She looked like she was still pretty itchy to yank it though, If I hadn't kept myself in between her and it. In the fullness of time, we reached Grand Central and A, B and C bolted from the train using separate doors.

Another day in the life...

flashlight GOOD!

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

Flashlights are good things to have. Stash one in the desk drawer at work, too. I speak from bitter experience here--the power in my old building went out twice, with the back-up lights failing as well, because the generator was down for lack of attention. 13 floors in the dark--wheeee! Even counting stairs, it was the Wrong Kind of Adventure. I also have a small one in my purse--about as long as my hand, uses 2 AA batteries, not enough for spelunking, but good for avoiding basic hazards.

I look forward to John encountering the Sorting Hat with interest--I can only imagine his crogglement.

Hope the cold has finally given up and gone to bother someone else.

Re: flashlight GOOD!

[pandoras-closet.livejournal.com]

I keep a mini mag-lite in a holster on my belt. That way, whenever out of the house, I always have a Flashlight handy

[hangingfire.livejournal.com]

Hurray for the Voice of Reason!

The Japanese guys with the white gloves fascinate me. We got to experience morning rush hour in Tokyo while we were there, and what's also amazing is that when these densely packed trains pull into the station, the waiting people form neat lines on either side of the door, and wait for everyone to disembark before rushing on.

We did not have to be shoved on, but I did end up with a girl dozing on her feet, leaning on my shoulder, for most of the trip between Shinjuku and Tokyo Station.

[(Anonymous)]

Schenck v. US is no longer good law, and so it is kind of annoying that people keep bringing it up. More so since it's always misquoted: Holmes was talking about people falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater. Yelling fire when it's true is laudable. Especially in theaters of his day, which were deathtraps.

Anyway, the current leading case is Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969). The gist of it is that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."

So merely voicing concern, without intent that there would be a panic, would likely be protected speech, if unwise. Similarly, it doesn't strike me as likely that a train full of jaded North Jerseyans would do anything anyway due simply to your comment (though the ultimate test would be if they actually did).

I wouldn't worry about it.

(I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer, and this isn't legal advice. For legal advice and an actual attorney-client relationship, instead go to a lawyer licensed to practice in your jurisdiction)

[camwyn]

More so since it's always misquoted: Holmes was talking about people falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater. Yelling fire when it's true is laudable. Especially in theaters of his day, which were deathtraps.

Well, yes, but I wasn't really thinking of it from the point of view of 'warning people about something happening right now'. I was thinking of it from the point of view of 'if I say 'wow, this would be exactly the kind of situation a terrorist would be looking for to cause maximum possible suffering and damage', probably half the people on this train would go into panic mode'. Which would amount to a false report causing a clear and present danger, though not on a scale comparable to the draft-related stuff being discussed in Schenck.

The gist of it is that "the constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."

Makes sense. I wonder if that's what the stuff at the bottom of the papers being handed out by the striking Amerada Hess workers at the building next door was about- "this information is not intended in any way to encourage anyone to break the law or not go to their jobs" was the general thrust thereof.

Really, I didn't say anything because I have a tendency to think of things other people would find disturbing, only without finding them all that disturbing myself. I could discuss something like that with a friend and not worry too much, but on the train yesterday there would have been no point to saying anything save perhaps to see the looks on the faces of the people around me. And that would've been just cruel, even if it didn't cause a panic or fear wave.