I posted this to fanficrants,

[camwyn]

but if y'all can answer the questions here, that's cool too.


I'm a big advocate of fanfiction as a way of filling in the blanks in a published author's work until such time as that author does so themselves. I mean, there's huge chunks of history and character development in nearly any fandom that just haven't been explored, and quite often they're stuff I want to know about. What happened during the Grindelwald years in the Potterverse, or how wizards travel long distances when most people would fall off a broom after six or seven hours and flying carpets are almost certainly illegal for trans-Atlantic travel. Who the women were that inspired the creation of the term 'shieldmaiden of Rohan', or the beliefs of the Rohirrim about the afterlife; they certainly seem to believe in one, since Theoden talks about joining his ancestors more than once. The Numenoreans don't even have that much belief; where did the Rohirrim get theirs? What are the people of Khand like in their land beyond Mordor? What did the rest of the Landsraad do in the time between Paul Atreides puttin' the stabby on Feyd-Rautha and the unwashed rabble of Arrakis overrunning the Known Worlds? (I mean, other than wet their pants.) What happens aboard the whaleboat Rachel after Ahab refuses to help? Things like that.

I also enjoy fanfiction as a way of filling in the blanks about a given character and his/her history, personality, etc. That's why I wrote 'Arches', or at least partly why I did so; I had a hard time believing anyone could get into Hogwarts if they were as genuinely stupid as Gregory Goyle seemed to be, and I had a feeling there might be more to him than the 'hur hur hurh, Gronk smash' we see in the books. He had to come from somewhere- he's got a name, he's got possessions, he's got parents even if they are Death Eaters. What about them? What are they like? Other people, too. What were Alatar and Pallando like? What does Kingsley Shacklebolt do when he's not taking off from normal Auror duties to zap kids for Dumbledore? Did Petrucchio really tame Katarina, or were the two of them secretly pulling the wool over everyone else's eyes for the sake of some really big wagers?

The problem is that there's a very fine line between filling in blanks and what the good folks at deleterius and pottersues have termed 'Pepper Jack Cheese'. That term comes from an author who was writing the mandatory Hogwarts Express scene and decided that Hermione was going to consider that cheese her personal favourite- because it was the author's favourite. Never mind the fact that Hermione is English and probably wouldn't have access to the stuff (I'm not sure it's sold outside the United States). She wanted to give Hermione a personalizing detail, so pepper jack cheese it was. There were other things thrust upon the character, too, but I've forgotten the rest. It wasn't much of a fic.

At what point does adding stuff to a character cross the line into presumption- treading on the original author's toes? And how far can you go into presumption before you outdo even that and get genuinely egregious? Supposing a character in your fic hasn't got a published or spoken first name in a setting where everyone has a first name and a last name. Does giving them one cross a line? If you give them one that sounds appropriate to the setting and the character, is that more acceptable? For example, we never see Madam Hooch's first name, although everyone else human seems to have two names in the Potterverse. One fanfic author I read named her 'Xiomara'. I personally consider this a nice touch, since Potterverse names tend to be a bit wacky and it sounds appropriate for someone like Hooch, but I don't know how other folks feel about it. What about giving relatives to someone whose history has never been written or spoken? Back in the first few seasons of X-Files we had almost no information on Assistant Director Skinner; one author (a member of the Walter Skinner Estrogen Brigade- ah, those were happy days) postulated a farm childhood and a number of brothers for him, and an ugly period after he returned from his service in Vietnam. She wrote awfully well, and while everybody in sight except Skinner was an OC, I don't remember anyone qualifying as a Mary Sue or any especially gratuitous nastiness. Yes, there was the time after 'Nam, but the only info we had on this guy's history was a paragraph or two where he told Mulder he signed up for the Marines on his eighteenth birthday and that 'I was no choirboy, I inhaled'. It seemed to her that such a reaction to the events of the war was entirely in keeping with real-world veterans' problems, so it was reasonable for the character. . .



Anyway. The reason I ask all this is because I'm about to start on a fanfic for a Lester Dent character (Lester Dent was the guy who gave the world Doc Savage, the Man of Bronze, in the days of the pulp magazines) who only ever had two stories written about him. At no point in either story did Dent give the guy's name- there wasn't even a nickname. Just a title- 'the Silver Corporal'. The fic I'm about to start is something in the way of an origin story, since Dent made it abundantly clear that the Corporal hailed from Wyoming and somehow wound up in the Northwest Mounted Police anyway. I was going to start with a scene where he crossed the border into Canada and someone stopped him. I don't think I can get around the inevitable question of 'what's your name, stranger?', and while it may be acceptable in Wyoming to say 'most folks jes' call me Mouse', I really don't think that he could get away with a statement like that at the bloody border crossing.

It's just that Dent had twelve thousand words in which he could have given the man's name, and at no point did he do so. He didn't even drop a hint of ethnicity, which would have at least pointed in the direction of a family name if nothing else. Is it presumptuous to give this fellow a full name, considering that his original author appears to have gone out of his way to avoid doing so? Can I get away with the trick they pulled several times on MacGyver? That is, something along the lines of "He murmured the name; the redcoat winced and said, "No wonder they call you Mouse!""? I'm not even sure I feel quite right about the 'Mouse' part, but cowhands don't usually come with titles, so I needed something to call him before he joined the NWMP. The man is described as quiet, unassuming, and very, very short (Dent uses words like 'wee' and 'elfin', for Pete's sake); 'Mouse' is about the nicest thing he could get called, really.

I don't want to trample on author intent. And I don't want to pepperjack the character, either. So I was wondering, and I hope one of y'all can clarify matters for me. Yeah, we're talking ultra-tiny fandom here (right now the entire population of Silver Corporal fandom can probably be counted on one hand), but it's a matter of respect for the original author. Any suggestions?

Comments

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I don't think its presumptuous in some moral sense, but I will say that I almost never see a POV character given a name they didn't have in canon without finding it jarring. (Hooch likely wouldn't bother me, if I even remembered. I've named Spike's mother with no qualms. Giving Spike a last name, OTOH, always makes me cringe.)

I prefer that fanficcers get around the problem cleverly. In this case, the mumble solution could be okay, or he could just hand over his ID without answering aloud -- make him laconic. Or have his mouthful. Or be ticked off at the guard and not willing to give any more than he has to. Or make it a plot point. Smuggle him across the border. Have him wander across at a place where there are no guards and be hopelessly lost until he's found by the mounties. Or, you know, skip the scene. :) If there's nothing else you need to establish at the border, you can just pick up once he's arrived.

Oh, and re: Mouse, you could give him an ironic nickname -- like how they pick the tiniest, most unaggressive man in the bunch and call him Killer?

Mer

[camwyn]

In the time it took me to eat lunch, I realised that I have a solution at hand. I've got the guy heading for the border in pursuit of a horse thief- the horse in question having just been turned over to our little hero when it was stolen. I couldn't see anyone randomly carrying ID in the 1890's, but I could see a man who just received a horse from a very grateful breeder carrying the contract that proved his ownership of the now-stolen animal. That's as good an ID as any, I figure.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Makes sense to me!

[camwyn]

It's also a little tip of the hat to an excellent John Cusack movie, The Jack Bull. Or at least, the pursuit-of-stolen-horse angle is. And it allows for:

"... This is your name?"
"Yep."
"You're sure that's a name?"
"Yep."
"How, er... how d'you pronounce that?"
"Gener'ly, I don't. Told ya, most folks jes' call me Mouse."
"... I can see why." *hands back contract*

[eljuno.livejournal.com]

Madam Hooch's first name, although everyone else human seems to have two names in the Potterverse. One fanfic author I read named her 'Xiomara'. I personally consider this a nice touch, since Potterverse names tend to be a bit wacky and it sounds appropriate for someone like Hooch, but I don't know how other folks feel about it.

Ahhhh, the Xiomara issue...

According to the IMDB, her name IS Xiomara. According to the trading card came, it's Rolanda.

Personally, I deal with this issue by mentally calling her "Xiomara Rolanda Hooch."

And we call her Xiomara in my RPG, if that makes any difference whatsoever.

[camwyn]

Personally, I deal with this issue by mentally calling her "Xiomara Rolanda Hooch."

I'm not sure where the Xiomara part came from, but someone on fanficrants said Rolanda was mentioned in one of JKR's interviews. I myself would deal with it exactly the way you did- in fact, I have done so, for another character. The title character in my Diary of a Mountie stuff appeared first in a radio series, where I think his first name (Bill) was mentioned all of twice- once on its own, given as something like an alias to a man who didn't recognise him, and once in an introduction. The same character then wound up in a TV series where his first name was never spoken at all, but according to the actor who played him on TV and (apparently) the scripts, the TV character's name was Frank. Given that my father's name is James Patrick and that almost nobody outside of the corporation he used to work for ever calls him James, I figured 'Frank William Preston' was a fair way of reconciling the two names.

[deccaboo.livejournal.com]

Well, I personally call her Rolanda in fics, since IMDB has now removed 'Xiomara' from their text on the first HP film. For me, Rolanda has an air of reality to it. Xiomara just seems too fanciful, even if this is a fantasy series!

There are loads of interpretations on this theme though; Rolanda Xiomara, Xiomara Rolanda, Rolanda, Xiomara...

(deleted, edited and reposted for sentence errors!)

[camwyn]

Rather to my surprise, Xiomara turned out to be a real-world name. One of the tellers at my credit union is named Xiomara. Of course, she's Hispanic, which Hooch probably isn't unless one of her parents is from Spain, but...

[mephron]

Most of my stuff gets stir-fried random anyway.

But just on the subject of pepper jack cheese in England:

A friend of mine in college went to England for a Semester Abroad. During his wanderings, he went into an English store looking for liquor, and promptly collapsed in hysterical laughter after seeing the following:

THUNDERBIRD
An American Tradition

Brought to the United Kingdom
by
Bartles and Jaymes

So the idea of pepper jack cheese in the UK isn't quite as off as you might think. I do think, however, it's still pretty off.

[camwyn]

... holy Britney mother of Ailix, they're exporting Thunderbird?

T-Bird and pepperjack.

[quintus.livejournal.com]

Time was, T-bird was the underage schooly drink of choice. Although for my part I only encountered it in my 20's.

My only encounter with pepperjack cheese has been in the McDonalds 'Big Tasty' burger, to which I am quite partial. Although I suspect that the substance in question may only vaguely resemble the original.

[penguinzero.livejournal.com]

I think there's generally a good amount of leeway for filling in the blanks -- as long as you do it well, and thoughtfully, and with respect. (And, if you're writing for a fandom of a work-in-progress like the Harry Potter books, if you accept that you may be contradicted one day.)

Bad extrapolations can be as bad or worse than the pepper jack cheese, of course. There are fanfics out there where every single character shares the author's tastes in music, style of clothing, political and religious views, and so on, and so forth. But I think that's less a fault of the idea of extrapolation and more of a certain limited mindset the author has. Of course the character would think like this! After all, they're cool/intelligent/stylish/whatever, so naturally they'll agree with me on important things like this!

A good extrapolation -- even something as simple as a name -- can sometimes fit in and just seem so right you're surprised it's not part of the canon. Even on matters of names, sometimes -- I remember that back when I was involved in Ranma 1/2 fandom, authors occasionally asked each other 'what was the late Mrs. Tendou's name?' There was no official answer -- Mrs. Tendou had only shown up in very occasional flashbacks, mostly by her daughters. So, at one point, one story gave her the name 'Kimiko.' It's a decent name for her -- pleasant sounding, authentically Japanese, and fairly common at that. And so more and more stories started using the name, instead of thinking one up on their own. There was no problem with creating other names, but why bother, when Kimiko was as right as any, and familiar, to boot?

In your case, I'd say the solution you've come up with is quite acceptable and amusing, but there's nothing wrong with giving him a name if you find one that works -- or, for that matter, expanding on his family life, his schooling history, his approach to the politics of the day, or yes, even his favorite foods -- as long as it makes sense in the context of the times and the genre. Build from what you know -- given that he's a quiet, unassuming man from Wyoming in the 1890s, what might he reasonably think? What would he reasonably have eaten regularly, and (if he's not Wyoming-born) what foods from elsewhere does he miss? (Probably not pepper jack cheese, I'd guess.) Given the ethnic makeup of Wyoming at the time, what kinds of name might he reasonably have? (Legolas Saotome is right out.) And, of course, if you don't have to mention any of this in the story, there may be no need to even think on it. As long as your answers don't mysteriously coincide with your own personal tastes on every count (and you're definitely far too good and thoughtful an author for that to be a danger) I'd say you're pretty safe.

Rohirric Afterlife...

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Considering that JRRT five-fingered all kinds of details for the Rohirrim from the Anglo-Saxons (while vehemently denying that they were crypto-Anglo-Saxons on pretty horsies), it's logical to presume that he would have done so with this, too.

In which case, if you take all the Germanic pre-Christian tribes as your baseline, you have three choices:

1. "Hall of $DEITY" Not likely for the Rohirrim, even if we allow as how you could map the Valar onto one of the Germanic pantheons... no, actually, it doesn't work, and we know they don't collect people anyway. Discard.


2. "Rebirth within the family line" This one was favoured by the Icelanders of the Saga period. No Buddhist or Hindu-style reincarnation here: your new baby got Grandpa's name in the hopes that he would, in fact, be Grandpa come 'round again. Consequently, it was bad luck to name a child after a still-living relative. Again, unlikely, but you've touched an area where I have a smidge of expertise so I'm being thorough. 8-)


3. "Dying into the Land" The other favorite is that you would have a hill or such and inside your ancestors would be having an eternal party. When you die, you get to join them. Hence barrows, burial mounds, et al. Moreover, your ancestors were considered to hang around and be arbiters of the family luck -- an important quality, as luck was not considered random, but more like a bank account. Some things feed it, some things piss it away, and if your ancestors didn't like you you didn't get any, which qualified you for "tragedy you can laugh at" status. The king, however, had the luck of the whole land at stake wit his life and death: if the crops had been good in your reign, after you died they'd keep making offerings to ensure they stayed that way, and the king could eventually get identified and/or assimilated with one of the gods. And, of course, the flip side is that if the crops were bad, obviously you weren't doing so hot as a king so you should nip off and sacrifice yourself.
   
   1. This should not be taken as an endorsement of sacrificing Da Shrub, because according to current modern American thinking, that's assassination. Even if the crops are bad and the mandate of heaven is obviously rolling its eyes, etc.

So, anyway, while I'm not up on what the Anglo-Saxons specifically thought, that last option seems most congruent with the data we have.

As to Gandalf saying warm, heartening stuff about where Théodred and the bazillion Gondorians were going, I... well, won't bother to rant about Peter Jackson's crackpipe, I'm sure you know what I'd say already. Grar, harrumph, etc.

-- Lorrie

Re: Rohirric Afterlife...

[camwyn]

As to Gandalf saying warm, heartening stuff about where Théodred and the bazillion Gondorians were going

Wasn't thinking warm fuzzy Gandalf. Last time I went through the "dammit, those were my favourite ribs, Snowmane" section of ROTK, Theoden made a comment about going to join his ancestors and not being ashamed. I'd have to look it up when I got home but I'm pretty sure one or two of the other Rohirrim made similar comments.

This should not be taken as an endorsement of sacrificing Da Shrub, because according to current modern American thinking, that's assassination. Even if the crops are bad and the mandate of heaven is obviously rolling its eyes, etc.

Trust me on this, honey, as a longtime student of Zhongguo and its customs, and a deep and abiding fan of Mary Renault, I'm familiar with both the Mandate of Heaven (which we appear to have lost quite some time ago) and the Calling of the King.

Re: Rohirric Afterlife...

[lwood.livejournal.com]

Well, yes, several book-Rohirrim do make that comment, which is why I so strongly favored the "die into mound, party with ancestors, get shiny offering" angle for What Rohirrim Do. After all, reincarnating within the line is for the Dwarfs...

I know you're all down with the Mandate o' Heaven and such -- just didn't want to sound like I was advocating sacrifice of the President in an effort to placate the gods as a bit of criminal ass-covering in a public forum. 8-P

-- Lorrie

Re: Rohirric Afterlife...

[camwyn]

ust didn't want to sound like I was advocating sacrifice of the President in an effort to placate the gods as a bit of criminal ass-covering in a public forum.

Mm. Fair enough. Although it probably wouldn't do much good anyway; royal sacrifices seldom have much in the way of a kick unless said royalty goes willingly.