Whiney time now.

[camwyn]

Okay. I've whined about this before. I know I'm getting on people's nerves, or at least I suspect I am, but I'd kind of like to let it out again.

"Oh! What a great character! You play the character well! I'll have to tag the character!" means absolutely jack diddly. Because it generally doesn't produce any actual tags, see. I can understand "I'd tag if I wasn't being eaten alive by my own plot" and "I'd tag if I wasn't being eaten alive by RL". RL takes precedence, and I did make that mistake once of scheduling things so that Foliage Census, Island of Gratuitous Mayhem, and the World Without Magic stuff came to a head at approximately the same time. I know of the brain-eatey.

But if I have to whine and cry and generally act like a childish brat who doesn't think she's getting enough attention in order to get tags for a supposedly beloved character, I have a hard time working up the enthusiasm to give him any freaking entry posts at all, never mind working up the plots that I'd been desperately hoping to run.

(This is the point where the more sensible parts of my brain chime in with 'idiot, if you started the plottage, you'd get the tags without whining'. Only I'm currently deep in doubt about even THAT.)

I want to run the plots and make people happy and interested, and I'll do it in a heartbeat- but I'd kind of like just a little bit of attention outside of the big plotfoo.

Without, um, having to whine about wanting attention. Oy, my head.

(Edit: the fact that the minimalist posters are getting more tags than any of my characters, even after I've whined, does absolutely nothing at all for my sense of being any good whatsoever at this.)

Comments

[innerbrat]

Wow. It really mean something when you write these posts. 'M just saying.

*hasn't RPed in... weeks, perhaps?*

[camwyn]

.... see, I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.

[vivian-shaw.livejournal.com]

Look, there's something seriously, seriously wrong with the world if you are having difficulty getting people to play. You are and have been one of the most phenomenally talented RPers it's been my pleasure to play with.

Which is not to say I'm not biting my fist and going BRING JOHN BACK or anything. But it troubles me that minimalist meh-type posters are getting more tags than you.

[camwyn]

Everyone seems to be more than happy to interact and RP if I tag them first. Getting incoming tags seems to be a task of inducing pity in my friends, though. I've had spontaneous tags on Ray posts in the past week- one from a total stranger character played by someone I've RP'ed with exactly once, so that was cool, and two from characters that annoy me immensely but that I RP'ed with because Ray is friendly and polite even when I would just as soon eat styrofoam.

.... okay, that's not entirely true. The stuff with Romana was genuine interest, not pity tagging. I'm sorry, I should've noted that.

[innerbrat]

*blinkblinks*

No sarcasm here. I just mean that you are awesome, and it does say something when you complain of no tags.

Like, for the fact that I've retired the 'always tag Ray with her' character' *shifty* and that I hardly play anymore anyway.

[canadabear.livejournal.com]

I tend to feel the same way. If people wanted to tag my characters, well, they'd tag my characters. SAying they think they're great and they'd love to tag, or that a tread between character A and character B would be awesome is all well and good, but as you've said, nothing really comes of it. That's why I tend to steer away from memes that encourage those comments.

...and as for the most recent meme where people are tossing out threads they'd like to see with characters that aren't even in the game? Well, that's a whole other rant.

[camwyn]

I have the two plots all lined up for Ray in my head. I was originally thinking I was going to not give Ray any entrance posts until October and see if anyone gave a crap, but I don't think that's going to do my psyche or the game any good. I might just start the first plot early instead. That would at least have the effect of getting things moving, instead of leaving me to wallow in "WAH NOBODY LOVES RAY ANY MORE", which is what I think I've been doing since last night.

[camwyn]

I can deal with that or ignore it, either way. The meme thing, I mean. I just... feel as if familiarity has finally bred drug-resistant contempt, and nobody tags Ray because they assume he'll always be there or something. Which led, last night, to the rather stupid idea of not giving him entry posts until October 'just to see if anyone notices'. I'm most likely going to start one of his plots instead because no-entry-posting would depress me beyond measure.

[emmlet.livejournal.com]

I don't know if any of this is helpful, but here goes:

Why I don't tag Ray: Lilly is totally fine with him... on the surface. However, his occupation freaks her the heck out. He traps ghosts for a living, and that brings up all kinds of things she really just doesn't want to think about, so she kinda avoids both the topic and him.

Donnie and Ray would get along very well, I think, and I do plan to tag him at some point. I haven't yet because, well, the very thing that would make them get along is one of the things I'm still not totally comfortable with, i.e. technobabble. Donnie requires a lot of brain, open Google and wikipedia windows, and until I get more canon, the presence of Bing.

In my next comment, thoughts on bar in general!

[camwyn]

Okay, see, I can understand that. On both points. I hadn't realised that about Lilly, but it does make sense. As for the Donnie thing, hoo nelly do I know how that feels- I can't even count the number of times I had to use www.howstuffworks.com when I first started playing Ray.

[sdelmonte]

You know we love Ray. And Sarge. And pretty much everyone you play.

It's simply that there is no one playing now. Especially during the daytimes. As as much as I hoped my "where are you people?!?" post in the Back Room would shake things up, all it got was more of the same.

That said, I make it a point of not tagging the same pups every day if there isn't either an ongoing plot or conversation. I'm glad that Knox is finally warming up to Ray, but I don't think that my current pups are likely to ever develop the level of rapport that Barry had with Ray. I hope this makes sense.

And if you can hold out till the apps are approved, Ray will probably have the time of his fanboy life when Kirk arrives in the Bar.

[canadabear.livejournal.com]

Which led, last night, to the rather stupid idea of not giving him entry posts until October 'just to see if anyone notices'.

I've done that. To my knowledge, no one noticed, but then perhaps people just didn't say anything about it.

Personally, I try not to bother people by tagging them a lot, which can lead to me eventually not tagging them at all. I just really don't want to be that person people dread getting tags from and I think in some cases, I've become that. So I try to avoid it.

comment part 2!

[emmlet.livejournal.com]

Bar is in a decided lull period, and I think, honestly, the app freeze may have intensified the problems it was supposed to help with. It certainly hurt activity. The daily number of posts dropped dramatically when the app freeze hit and has stayed low since. Now that could just be correlation and not causation, but it is one of the only major things that changed.

I think the tendency of players in general is just to fall into the habit of tagging in a certain group. You get into your comfort zone of people you know you have fun with and you stay there. I also think that what tends to stir this up is either plot or new pups coming in, making friends, enemies, starting fights or events or just generally causing a stir with the "squeee! we have a ___ now! oh they have to meet ____."

Also, I don't think you're the only one this is happening to. Threadzillas don't happen anymore outside of bartending posts. The last Lilly entrance post to attract someone outside her normal group of "hey guys, lilly's in, anyone up for thread?" was Strip Night. She used to get a lot more random tags too, when there were more random people in bar and not everyone was a known quantity.

I know app numbers were huge this month and that sucks for mods, but it makes me really happy. I think the influx of new blood is going to help game. Or at least, I really hope so.

[viridian.livejournal.com]

The only thing I can think is that you scare people a little. Because you put SO much into your characters. It can be a little intimidating, even to people who also put a great deal of work into their characters.

I mean, how many of those memes say "omg, I am seriously terrified of everyone"? I don't think it ever stops being true, really.

Having met you in person I'm still a bit intimidated by you, honestly. Because you stayed perfectly IC during the LARP where everyone else was having attacks of the gigglefits. And because I'm secretly terrified of everyone, no matter how many people tell me I'm a good writer, and no matter how proud I may be of certain threads or posts.

My Fred thinks Ray is cool. But I always feel a bit intimidated when they talk because she ought to be able to technobabble right back at him and my own technobabble skills are limited.

[camwyn]

Oh, I understand the daytimes. It's just that last night I put Ray in, and people who'd been posted in before him were tagged left and right, and then people who posted after him got tagged left and right, and it just... felt rather like I'd managed to piss somebody off or something. Because there was activity and none of it was pointed his way.

I'm fine with the not tagging the same pups every day thing, and I understand what you're saying about Knox; he's a cynical sort of fellow and I'd be surprised if he developed a really deep rapport with anybody who hadn't, I dunno, given him a kidney or something. But it's cool. And I sure as hell intend to hold on- I am not leaving this place. It's just that it's been especially painful lately to see tags going to everyone else and still spot '0' next to my posts.

[camwyn]

Heh. I'm starting to think I should've gone to the Army surplus place and bought an old infantry uniform and a week's supply of the word 'fuck' after all...

[avariel-wings.livejournal.com]

Thing is, Alex, the daytimes were always quieter than any other time. And Josie had a point - a lot of the core players are no longer college students who can afford to play during the day. Their lives have moved on, and therefore so has the trend in the game, to an extent.

[viridian.livejournal.com]

I don't think that would have been any less scary? *g*

[cupenny.livejournal.com]

And I still feel the same way, on both sides. "They've asked for such and such char, said char is in, why is no one tagging???"- rather why I think I stopped playing Atticus for a long while. People have been asking again, so I'll toss him in-

And prolly get in a funk if the same thing happens the last two times I entered him in the bar.

Even with the people I do RP with often, I still get the thought "Well, I've tagged them once this week, surely they're bored/fed up with me by now, so I'll let them be," particularly if they're a player I admire.

(I empathized a lot with Steve Urkle, in JrHS and HS. Who annoyed everyone and they hated him, but he had no clue so he still just stuck around. This is what I fear myself doing, often.)

I'm trying to get over this-it just takes a lot of time and effort on my own part. You're certainly one of the players I admire, so there is certainly a lot of "omg, I don't want to bother her too much".

Just.. um. Yeah. If I do bother you, let me know? And then if I've not noticed an entry post, hit me upsides the head.


(However- yeah. Minimalist posts must die.)

[bcgphoenix]

I think Emmy's got the gist of it: the entire bar is slow nowadays, we haven't been able to get a steady flow of new blood due to the app freeze, and people (including me, sadly) don't like to tag outside their comfort zones. For me, personally, it's also been a combination of RL (which has been sapping my energy for RP since...jeez, probably since January or February when I started working on my undergrad thesis in earnest) and the fact that I hit my ceiling on the number of simultaneous threads I can handle way, way sooner than most people. So if I've got an entrance post with three or four threads and a couple of slowtimes on top of it, I just...don't tag out. Which sucks.

But I do like Ray, and I do like threading with him, and once my current plot's wrapped and I'm not juggling two papers that need to be done within the next ten days, I solemnly swear I will send Mac his way. I've even added it to the Whiteboard of Threadtracking above my computer. *g*

[batyatoon]

I'm just hopelessly stalled on Andrew, and I can't let too much subjective time pass for him between what just happened and what's got to happen next -- I've barely been playing him at all, in consequence.

Maybe I should throw Charlie at Ray again and have them talk shop.

[gone_byebye]

Honey, I respect you and your characters and your RP. I would definitely let you know if you bothered me. No worries.

[camwyn]

.... I need more caffeine. I didn't even realise I wasn't logged in as me.

[camwyn]

I don't know how Danii feels about what's got to happen,b ut I'm willing to do my part in whatever style you feel is best for forging ahead with.

[misslucyjane]

You have my empathy. I've been feeling this way myself for quite a while--hence the big break.

[avariel-wings.livejournal.com]

Randomly. Mac-Mr. Universe sometime, when you have the brainspace for it?

[bcgphoenix]

That...has the potential to be glorious. *grins* Sure!

[avariel-wings.livejournal.com]

*griiiins*

I'll tag when I see her, then, or post him in if I can work up a good entrance post. Or you can drop me a mail or ping if I'm around when it's a good time.

:D

[bodldops.livejournal.com]

SO very much hear that. I get told all the time that my pups are great, they are wonderful, they are the best thing since sliced bread OMG, I'd love a thread with x, and so on and so forth...

But with a few very rare exceptions, if I throw a pup into the bar?

I can guess, with a fair amount of accuracy, who will tag. And it's usually about three people per pup that might tag, and of course if I tag them first, my post goes ignored.

So.

*shrugs*

That said, I love yours (though I'll admit I'm particularly fond of Wells and Ray, for the obvious reasons) and there will be threadage. If not tonight, because of late meeting, then tomorrow. Because. Those threads rock. :D

Also?

Freakin' AMEN on the minimimalist thing. Argh.

Re: comment part 2!

[genarti]

*nods*

I've noticed the same thing. I'm hoping that it'll change once the current round of app approvals goes through -- I know a number of people who've been waiting impatiently for a chance to play their new characters and feeling much more excitement/enthusiasm about doing so than I've noticed many people having for the characters they've been playing all summer and before.

So I think and hope that this lull will get broken up soon with new characters who don't have any preexisting relationships in the bar.

Re: comment part 2!

[genarti]

Addendum: and, yeah, River used to get a lot more random tags than she does these days, too.

Mind you, I've been bad about tagging out, too. But all the same, she used to get at least one random tag from a stranger every few nights or so, if not more, and lately it's just about all been prearranged threads with the same few people.

[genarti]

I can promise you that you are never bothering me. :) If I don't want a thread, I'll say so. I'm pretty sure I have yet to say so to you (and if I have, it's just because I was braindead/overthreaded/whatever that night).

Because you are nifty, and so is your RP.

[shellebelle93.livejournal.com]

It's just that it's been especially painful lately to see tags going to everyone else and still spot '0' next to my posts.

Oh, I *hear* you so much. I've been very frustrated. It seems that if my character has OMGANGST they automatically get threads, lots of threads.

If they're happy, contented and at peace with the world? nothing.

And yeah, it pisses me off no end when people who put no thought whatsoever into these tiny "minimalist" posts get a truckload of response. I might not write very wordy posts, but I do try to make them interesting and entertaining, at the very least.

*hugs* I'm not going anywhere, either. if I ONLY play with the people who tag me often, so be it. It's just...it could be so much more, you know?

[mm_madb]

I...play when I can get the energy. The stuff in Wells' world is, really, the only thing that interests me about the bar right now (although I am looking forward to my new character and hoping that she'll shake people up). Like you, I just got so tired of people constantly telling me how much they love me and never tagging. Ever. And then I realized that I was putting characters in because "I ought to" not because I thought that I'd get any play or enjoy it, and started feeling like nobody wanted my characters to tag theirs and I keep being told that I'm intimidating and...

I love playing with you. I love plotting with you, and talking to you, and playing with you, and I'm trying very hard to get enthusiasm for the game again so that I can force myself into tagging random characters; even from players that I already know.

Because like you told me a while back, I would be very sorry to lose you.

[sdelmonte]

There was as time, though, when the daytimes were busy enough that I sometimes got overwhelmed by tags to a Barry entry post, or by my desire to tag three and four entries when I was supposed to be working. It was never as busy, but it was lively.

I get that things have changed. I just miss how it was, same as everyone else.

[avariel-wings.livejournal.com]

I do love you and yours. But timezones are the issue, and not just with you.

Because there's all these people I want to play with, would love to play with, and they almost always seem to post when I'm either in bed or planning to go to bed within the hour.

So then I don't tag them. Nobody's fault, because I presume when they post in is when they have time to play, but... timezones suck, basically.

[mm_madb]

Dunno about everyone else, but I'm pretty good with slowtimes. (I'LL TAG RIGHT NOW steahl!!) I have everything go to Gmail, and respond when things show up in my inbox. So. For me? Tag in. If it is the latest thing I posted, even if its buried and days ago, I will still play in it.

[nepheliad.livejournal.com]

If Alexandre hadn't been dying!

I would have tagged you that time!

I know that you understood it! I am just reiterating.

Actually, a lot of the people who have commented here I haven't been tagging for the same reason -- because they're the people I expect to be swamped, so I try not to contribute -- just to discover that, in fact, not many people are really being swamped anymore. I have this preemptive fear of swamping people.

Also, these days,e verything I do ends up in slowtime. Which makes me feel guilty.

[nepheliad.livejournal.com]

Also?

Whistler.

I will be his fangirl and tag him EVERY DAY. ♥

[avariel-wings.livejournal.com]

I shall, then! :D

(Even if I don't see it until the next morning?)

[mm_madb]

Even if you don't see it for two days, yo.

[wonderwhatif.livejournal.com]

*is guilty of the intimidated thing, even despite bad timezone mesh* So I guess this is my resolution to be braver.

[vivien]

I'll throw my two cents in here - while I don't find you intimidating, Cam, I do find your writing style to be one in which I need to be awake and alert to be able to match the intelligence and thought you put into your characters. Ray is a best example of this.

I am not in any way asking you to dumb down - GOD FORBID - but when I play against you, I need to be able to really think and concentrate, and on any given day in the past, oh, I don't know, several months, those kinds of nights are few and far between for me.

Which is laaame and saaaad on my part.

[sleightofhand]

This is...

Okay, I'm trying to say this in a way that doesn't sound dismissive. I apologize in advance if it comes off that way.

You're not the first person who's complained about this, and you won't be the last, for sure, but it's never a complaint that I've really... understood, I guess? It's not one that I've ever had myself. There. Yes. I suppose it's because my expectations are just so low, with myself and with the Bar, that if I ever get tagged then I'm just thrilled. I'm still at the point where I honestly don't see why anyone would bother going out of their way to play with me. So if I have to go and tag other people, I just do.

I'd almost rather do it that way, a lot of the time, since I'm slow like anything and I like having that control over however many threads I get at once. And there's less anxiety. Whenever I post in the bar, it's like, "Okay. And now I wait?" I can't do it. I was always horrible at fishing.

So. I don't know. I guess I just felt like playing devil's advocate. It does suck that you feel this way, and I hope things do get better.

[shati.livejournal.com]

I seem to be a fairly lone voice here, and maybe I'm misunderstanding. But -- I don't think liking a character means I have an obligation to tag them?

This is moot anyway, since I haven't been playing lately. But I've never dished out tags as rewards for good playing. I can enjoy reading a character's threads, even say that I would enjoy threading with that character, and still -- yes -- not tag them. I tag haphazardly and at whim, and I don't think that's a problem. And -- okay, I'm a little irritated by the idea that praise honestly offered is worthless if it doesn't result in tags.

Like, I get that it's frustrating, and it's easier to be comfortable playing when people tag you first, but -- I'd go with tagging out over begging for tags in.

[camwyn]

It's not so much that praise honestly offered is worthless; it's when people say 'I love the character, I should interact with them more' and then don't. That's all.

[parke-matru.livejournal.com]

I get it. It's a crazy situation; I remember in the old days, I expressed my squeeing through tagging (which was a large factor in Snow becoming the unofficial greeter). But things have personally been bad for me lately; I keep saying I'll buckle down and send Agatha in again but generally wind up staring at a half-written post for an hour before changing my mind.

And. . . as a general thing, I've noticed being accused of putting characters in a protective bubble will cause said bubble to shrink more than anything else.

[in-the-blue.livejournal.com]

Well, you and I have kind of talked about this, or talked around it, a couple times. I think there are a lot of things going on that contribute to this.

First, I think a lot of people have been playing there long enough so they're kind of settled within their own groups for their characters. I know that after 2 years, Spike has his own circle of friends, and that's appropriate for his character. He still goes to other people all the time, but it's rarely reciprocated.

Second, I'm so sick of hearing people tell me they're intimidated. My style is different from your style is different from everyone else's style, and that's all there is to it. You and I have some similarities with the way we RP; we like to balance the speech with the internalization and I realize not everyone wants to write that way and that's just fine. It doesn't mean that anyone else has to write that way for me or for you, so it's now my belief that the whole you're too intimidating thing is nothing more than a crappy way of saying I don't have the energy to put the same kind of thought into things that you do, so I'm just not going to play with you. That second thing is fine by me. I'm all for honesty. It doesn't mean it has to be brutal, but at least it's refreshing.

Third. I hear a lot of people suggesting RP pairings either for themselves or for other people, but they almost never get followed up on in reality. It's all well and good to post car keys memes and pairing memes and play with me memes and who do you want to see together memes, but if the idea stops and ends there, it's a waste of time.

Fourth. It's not so hard to ping someone and say... will you play character [XYZ] with me in a few days? I love it when people do that, and I do it with other people all the time. It gives me time to prepare and make sure I put the right character in on the right night.

Fifth. I'll play with anyone. I'm not real exclusive. But if it's always me going to them instead of it being reciprocal... or if I feel like I have to pull teeth to get someone to respond or to finish a thread (oh, one of my pet peeves is when people beg slowtime and then drop the thread entirely), then I probably won't play much with that person again.

Sixth. I think people some people look at those of us who've been around a long time and won't play with us just because of that; go figure. I too spend time with completely untagged posts a lot of the time. I try to remind myself that it's not a popularity contest, but yeah. Usually when I put a character in the bar, I'll have him or her tag at least one or two other people around them, just for exposure's sake. But the untagged posts look so lonely. Sometimes I take them out if it's been a while with no response, save the entry posts for another time.

Some of my characters have "on" nights and sometimes I can't coax them out of their boxes no matter what. I was surprised as anything by what happened with Quinn and Hero, and that was such a hot damn kind of delight, it made playing there with someone "new" really fun again. And as other people have said, the app freeze killed some of the enthusiasm. I think there are other things that have killed a lot of the enthusiasm too, but those thoughts aren't for public consumption.

Enough for now. I probably should've read all the comments here before I posted, but... I didn't.