(no subject)

[camwyn]

Dear Brane:

As of this application cycle, you already have enough characters at milliways_bar. They all are quite useful and fulfil appropriate roles. Granted, Jah-lila is there mostly so that you can say 'I have a non-human character who will never become human', but that's still a purpose. You do not need more.

Even if Camilla n'ha Kyria, of the Darkover novels, could seriously beat the living snot out of anybody who got all weepy and womanly angstish over being in a bad position 'cos of pregnancy, social stigma, and/or low social standing.

(For reference's sake, Camilla is one of the Free Amazons of Darkover, a society of women who voluntarily renounce all privilege and obligation associated with being a woman in a feudalistic, quasi-medieval society. They generally come to this position through being hit with the worst their society has to offer. Camilla was gang-raped, became pregnant by it, and became so revolted at her own womanhood as a consequence that she found someone willing to not only abort the baby for her but perform a full hysterectomy and oophorectomy so no one would ever look at her as a lust object again. And then she found the Amazons, who taught her to stand on her own and defend herself and others. She does not put up with spinelessness in women.)

(Also, Marion Zimmer Bradley sort of had gender issues.)

Comments

[blackswanevent.livejournal.com]

I beg to differ-there are a shortage of well-written strong female roles (IMHO) considering that they're either A: Strong until they meet a MAN or B: Played by Milla Jovovitch......who despite my undying affection for is still a whore.

But then again, I rarely see movies that start from the feminist prespective.

That and I just love Marion Zimmer Bradley

[camwyn]

That's one of the things I like about Jah-lila's canon. There's a grand total of about three male characters among the main cast; most of the rest of the male roles are secondary. Ultimately Jan, the main character, accomplishes more by not actually being there than anything else. The female characters are responsible for most of what happens- without slamming males in general. Granted, the two biggest bads are both male, but there's a female big bad too. And there are good males... it's just that Tek, Ses, Jah-lila, and Lell are ultimately significantly more important than any of the guys.

Oh, and among the few humans Jan encounters, ultimately the female leader winds up on top despite the authoritarian male.

[colubra.livejournal.com]

Mrs. Bradley didn't sort of had gender issues. Girl had a subscription.

[camwyn]

What was it someone said about Batman? "He doesn't have issues. He has bound, indexed volumes."

I sort of liked the setting, and I liked the psi, but honestly, I liked it rather better in the Ages of Chaos/Hundred Kingdoms novels than in the Terrans Are Bad ones. And I was doing just fine with the gender issues... right up until, mmm, I think it was Two To Conquer. The one where the laranzu'in summoned a guy's doppelganger from Earth. He apparently needed to have his absolute identical double, in body and mind, for some plan or other of his. I forget the details. Just that this guy they yanked off of Earth was effectively identical to him in every way, down to the last gene and the last bit of attitude.

And then- I kid you not- he had sex with himself.

No, seriously. I know Mrs. Bradley has a tendency to put her characters through Self Discovery Through Homosexual Encounters, because you just haven't reviewed your life properly until you've boinked on both sides of the gender fence or something, but this was either twincest or masturbation and it just sort of made me go o____O for a very long time.

[colubra.livejournal.com]

I always thought the setting of the Darkover novels was brilliantly good- and two of them (Heritage of Hastur & Sharra's Exile) are actually books I'd recommend.
And in my opinion, most of the rest are complete and utter shit.

[camwyn]

I'd probably go for someone like Paksenarrion, in the Elizabeth Moon books. I was just thinking of Camilla because it's kind of hard for any whiny little excuse for a formerly strong character to top Camilla's level of trauma.

"Oh, my young man got me pregnant and then went off to the Army!"
"Five young men got me pregnant. Without asking."
"I joined the Army disguised as a man to find him!"
"I had my reproductive organs removed so no one would mistake me for a woman."
"I found him and he didn't love me or want the baby!"
"Did I mention I was pregnant at the time of the hysterectomy?"
"And now people are being meeeeeeeeeean to me in my home world!"
"That happens to pretty much every Free Amazon, everywhere, on my world. Grow up."

[camwyn]

I had them recommended to me by a nun who thought I'd like the Free Amazons. She was suspiciously silent on the rest of the books, but she thought I'd like the Amazon characters. I might mention that I was about ten or eleven at the time. And she's a Dominican sister.

[colubra.livejournal.com]

...I don't know that I'd let anybody under 13 anywhere near those books.

[camwyn]

Well, I'd already read Clan of the Cave Bear in third grade, and attempted to read The Valley of HOrses in fourth (Mom took it away- she was reading it ahead of me and got to the sex scenes- but I would sneak some chapter reads anyway). And Sister Vicki had already given me my copy of Dune, and the Mists of Avalon. So... not that much extra to see, really.

[hrguardianangel.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, in the "Silent Hill" script there were no male castmembers. Most of the game characterse are male but the French Director wanted to make a movie with an all female cast. Then of course the studio gave them a bit of a detramental note about the lack of males so they stuck in one major male character but he's supposedly the most underdeveloped of all of them.

Trivia note.

[almeda.livejournal.com]

Valley of Horses ... mmmmm. Though the Hawt Elephant Sex in The Plains of Passage is cooler. :->

[camwyn]

*twitch*

I am so gonna have a character get trapped in the wilderness with only a copy of The Plains of Passage so that the Hawt Elephant Sex Scene is put to its proper usage.

[almeda.livejournal.com]

I coulda sworn Camilla was one of those things you get when people have been breeding with those gracile aliens too much during Ghost Wind -- v. telepathic, but neuter.

Maybe I missed a book or two.

[camwyn]

Nope. She had Comyn blood but she had... hmm, who was the Hastur Keeper before Cleindori? I think it might have been Elorie Hastur... perform the neutering operation.

[starwatching.livejournal.com]

Leonie Hastur. "Elorie Hastur" was Camilla's name as a child, before she changed it.
"Emmasca", the Darkovers called someone like her. "Neuter", either by crossbreeding or surgery.

[camwyn]

Thank you. It'd completely slipped my mind, and I should've remembered.

[starwatching.livejournal.com]

The Hasturs could have given lessons in Dysfunctional Family
301. Implication in The City of Sorcery was that Leonie's twin brother was Camilla's father. *eyeroll*

I do like some of the Darkover books, but yeah, issues.

[isustrikanda.livejournal.com]

okay, quick question: admitting that i have not read these books....

How the heck does the removal of internal organs make it so nobody will mistake her for a woman? we're talking about things that are seriously not visible from the outside. Did she have her breasts removed as well? 'cause Ow.

[batyatoon]

I go with Bujold, myself.

*may just possibly want to be Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan when she grows up*

[camwyn]

No, the breasts stayed. But without constant estrogen/progesterone availability from the ovaries, there wasn't a whole lot of impetus for the body to keep fueling the size of the breasts, especially not when she took up a more active lifestyle involving near-constant physical training in self-defense. I have heard it said that women and weight are like buckets and water; it is gained fist at the bottom, and lost first at the top.

A male doctor told my mother that, I might note.

[grey-bard.livejournal.com]

What fictional universe is Jah-lila from?

[camwyn]

Meredith Ann Pierce's Firebringer Trilogy. She narrates the first book, and she has larger roles in 2 and 3.